Curse

Byron · Oct 05, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Defensive Anthem is fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

RaO is fine, stop being bad.

As for MoR, I think I see the problem. Without some kind of easy e-management (ie, GoLE), it would be pretty hard to get wards up under the current dom mesmer template (diversion, shame, shatter). A GoLE reduction should clear up the problems with MoR ease, imo.

LifesRestorer · Oct 05, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

As for MoR, I think I see the problem. Without some kind of easy e-management (ie, GoLE), it would be pretty hard to get wards up under the current dom mesmer template (diversion, shame, shatter). A GoLE reduction should clear up the problems with MoR ease, imo.

Drain Ench on 15 second recharge and pdrain on around 18 second recharge is ftw. waste not, want not on 11s recharge is also ftw. there are pleanty of good alternatives to glyph. MoR needs to be changed to work on any skill from the mesmer line

Master Ketsu · Oct 05, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

DA is fine, stop being bad.

RaO is fine, stop being bad.

MoR is fine, stop being bad.

DA because it's a two second cast that you can power leak and only actually effects 2-3 characters (unless the only thing that teams do is train monks), RaO because apparently you're terrible and can't win the first two maps in tombs, and MoR because the only thing it does is make diversion come up more often (which your team calls...right?) and makes wards even dumber (which is more indicative of a problem with wards than it is some random mesmer elite). There are far more interesting elites to run on a dom guy; it could use an increase in cost, but its really opened up a few interesting options on a dom guy that don't involve damage.

On a side note, They need to nerf balth's aura and buff dwarven battle stance.

Exactly. The people complaining about these are the same in my eyes as back when people were mass complaining about touch rangers - until of course the community realized that kiting touchies destroyed their puny DPS. But before then people were whining up a storm.

It seems the standard n00b reaction to any newly discovered build that does decent damage or defense is ZOMG ANET NERF NOW PLOX FAILNET CANT BALANCE GAME FOR CRAP NERF NOW NERF NOW WAAAAAH IM GETTING OWNED BECAUSE IM TOO LAZY TO REALIZE HOW REDICULOUSLY EASY IT IS TO COUNTER IT !!!111!!

DA sins - please. Its a good caster spike, true, but you seem to be forgetting three things.

1-Its assassin. Sins Spike. Thats their deal.

2.Its HALF CAST range. think about that: They still have to get pretty close to you before unleashing. Meaning that its easy to see coming, and easy to pre-prot against. and if your teams formation is right you can make it almost just as difficult to reach their target as a melee'r.

3.It, like other assassin spikes, must be used in a 12345 string. Meaning that if an interupt ranger dshots them mid combo or a memser Diverts them mid combo then its GG sin ( I think this is the biggest reason why its not overpowered IMO ).

4.Pretty reliant on conditions. Throw a random prot-Dismiss condition-GG sin.

5.Am I the only one who noticed that its very energy intensive ? Without crit strikes a sin has little to no e management, and all the good sin e management skills are tied to physical attacks. even basic e-denial their way can force them to stand around for recharge.

RaO - come on. The only reason why RaO is a good build is because its a decent pressure/spike build thats ridiculously easy to run. Their are actually quite a lot of builds undiscovered by the mass community out their that are legions more powerful then RaO, but never will be discovered because they are too hard to run. Standard n00b response to build = If I cant run it the build sux.

As for counters- Dude. Wtf. Basic blocking. Off monk condition removal. Reversal of fortune, shield of absorption. Wards. asic counters that you should bring anyway if ran correctly will pwn RaO.

Plus, RaO'rs themselves have almost NO self defense. Its easy to get them overextended and then spike them down.

MoR ? FAIL. I remember when people said this sucked and the minute people find uses for it in wards and a silly andragons gaze spambuild all of the sudden the n00bs cry for nerf. Please stop being bad and just <whatever i cba censoring good>.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Wrong.

12 chars.

Either state why you think he is wrong or GTFO. No one cares about unbacked opinions.

moriz · Oct 05, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

by your logic, a skill that does 23130374103950283475 damage is not overpowered, because the counter is prot spirit.

glountz · Oct 05, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Exactly. The people complaining about these are the same in my eyes as back when people were mass complaining about touch rangers - until of course the community realized that kiting touchies destroyed their puny DPS. But before then people were whining up a storm.

It seems the standard n00b reaction to any newly discovered build that does decent damage or defense is ZOMG ANET NERF NOW PLOX FAILNET CANT BALANCE GAME FOR CRAP NERF NOW NERF NOW WAAAAAH IM GETTING OWNED BECAUSE IM TOO LAZY TO REALIZE HOW REDICULOUSLY EASY IT IS TO COUNTER IT !!!111!!

DA sins - please. Its a good caster spike, true, but you seem to be forgetting three things.

1-Its assassin. Sins Spike. Thats their deal.

2.Its HALF CAST range. think about that: They still have to get pretty close to you before unleashing. Meaning that its easy to see coming, and easy to pre-prot against. and if your teams formation is right you can make it almost just as difficult to reach their target as a melee'r.

3.It, like other assassin spikes, must be used in a 12345 string. Meaning that if an interupt ranger dshots them mid combo or a memser Diverts them mid combo then its GG sin ( I think this is the biggest reason why its not overpowered IMO ).

4.Pretty reliant on conditions. Throw a random prot-Dismiss condition-GG sin.

5.Am I the only one who noticed that its very energy intensive ? Without crit strikes a sin has little to no e management, and all the good sin e management skills are tied to physical attacks. even basic e-denial their way can force them to stand around for recharge.

RaO - come on. The only reason why RaO is a good build is because its a decent pressure/spike build thats ridiculously easy to run. Their are actually quite a lot of builds undiscovered by the mass community out their that are legions more powerful then RaO, but never will be discovered because they are too hard to run. Standard n00b response to build = If I cant run it the build sux.

As for counters- Dude. Wtf. Basic blocking. Off monk condition removal. Reversal of fortune, shield of absorption. Wards. asic counters that you should bring anyway if ran correctly will pwn RaO.

Plus, RaO'rs themselves have almost NO self defense. Its easy to get them overextended and then spike them down.

MoR ? FAIL. I remember when people said this sucked and the minute people find uses for it in wards and a silly andragons gaze spambuild all of the sudden the n00bs cry for nerf. Please stop being bad and just <whatever i cba censoring good>.

Either state why you think he is wrong or GTFO. No one cares about unbacked opinions.

I think you don't know what you're talking about. Unless I'm really tired, what means DA?

moko · Oct 05, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I think you don't know what you're talking about. Unless I'm really tired, what means DA?

deadly arts.

he's right on the rao part, he's right on the assassin part, except deadly paradox screws interrupts totally. also using soj on a diversion is hard mmkay? also condition removal while you are on your butt mm i totally agree.

also you failed at reading Ketsu. nobody wants a mor change cause of angorodon...it's about WARD VS MELEE which does cause a big problem actually. (haha actually i failed at reading, i was sure you didn't include ward before

)

edit oh wow i clearly need to use less "also".

RhanoctJocosa · Oct 05, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

As for MoR, I think I see the problem. Without some kind of easy e-management (ie, GoLE), it would be pretty hard to get wards up under the current dom mesmer template (diversion, shame, shatter). A GoLE reduction should clear up the problems with MoR ease, imo.

I disagree. The MoR bar has PDrain and Ienchant/Drain which is more than enough energy mangement unless you're bad and spam Diversion on recharge and miss your PDrains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Exactly. The people complaining about these are the same in my eyes as back when people were mass complaining about touch rangers - until of course the community realized that kiting touchies destroyed their puny DPS. But before then people were whining up a storm.

Hmmm no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

1-Its assassin. Sins Spike. Thats their deal.

2.Its HALF CAST range. think about that: They still have to get pretty close to you before unleashing. Meaning that its easy to see coming, and easy to pre-prot against. and if your teams formation is right you can make it almost just as difficult to reach their target as a melee'r.

3.It, like other assassin spikes, must be used in a 12345 string. Meaning that if an interupt ranger dshots them mid combo or a memser Diverts them mid combo then its GG sin ( I think this is the biggest reason why its not overpowered IMO ).

4.Pretty reliant on conditions. Throw a random prot-Dismiss condition-GG sin.
5.Am I the only one who noticed that its very energy intensive ? Without crit strikes a sin has little to no e management, and all the good sin e management skills are tied to physical attacks. even basic e-denial their way can force them to stand around for recharge.

Have you ever vsed a team with 3 A/Mo and a bonder in TA? By the sounds of it I'd say no.

3) If it's causing you grief, divert it- You are bad at GW.
5) Castigation Signet (do you even know what's on the bar you're talking about?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

RaO - come on. The only reason why RaO is a good build is because its a decent pressure/spike build thats ridiculously easy to run. Their are actually quite a lot of builds undiscovered by the mass community out their that are legions more powerful then RaO, but never will be discovered because they are too hard to run. Standard n00b response to build = If I cant run it the build sux.

How is the build easy to run? You still need to know how to position yourself, what targets to pressure, how to waste prot, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

As for counters- Dude. Wtf. Basic blocking. Off monk condition removal. Reversal of fortune, shield of absorption. Wards. asic counters that you should bring anyway if ran correctly will pwn RaO.

Plus, RaO'rs themselves have almost NO self defense. Its easy to get them overextended and then spike them down..

zzzzz again with the counters, although aura of stability is very good vs. thumpers. Still, stupid argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

MoR ? FAIL. I remember when people said this sucked and the minute people find uses for it in wards and a silly andragons gaze spambuild all of the sudden the n00bs cry for nerf. Please stop blabla too lazy to censor again.

Can you stop posting? Please?

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

by your logic, a skill that does 23130374103950283475 damage is not overpowered, because the counter is prot spirit.

QFT

Farin · Oct 05, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

DA isnt fine, Its unstrippable and because of this its recharge needs a nerf. at the minimum.

Joe

Uhh.. 15 Energy, 2s Cast, 25s Recharge, ends if you hit with an attack skill. Seems perfectly mine to me. What people need to do is bring an extra interrupt for DAnthem and other skills instead of trying to shut down everything with their one mesmer and bitch at their inability to do so. I mean, even if it goes up, you can still hit their physical characters for the 9 seconds it's up. Granted fighting against defense balls is a pain in the ass we still manage to break them relatively fast through smartly located shutdown. DA is an elite aegis at best and even if it was an enchantment it still wouldn't change much.

Master Ketsu · Oct 05, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

How is the build easy to run? You still need to know how to position yourself, what targets to pressure, how to waste prot, etc.

....are those not the most basic of strategy elements of any melee based build ?

Fail.

I have no need to read the rest of your post. The only thing about RaO that takes anything other then basic understanding of how to play is the instant pet res trick.

Quote:

except deadly paradox screws interrupts totally.

Not really, Since any decent sin will spam the build as a 1,2,3,4 spike you only need to fire an interrupt in between. Its the same concept with interupting sin attack combo's. Of course you dont know which skill it is your interupting, you just need to know that they are using one almost 100% of the time during their combo, and any interuption in between means they wont be able to finish. Ive dshotted so many DA'rs since it became popular its not even funny.

although I would agree that Deadly paradox could use a minor nerf. Nothing as drastic as some say ( 3 duration 45 sec recharge wtf that better have been a joke )
Im thinking more like 18 second recharge and scaled so that it ends at 16 seconds with 16 in DA. still useable, just a minor annoyance.

Quote:

by your logic, a skill that does 23130374103950283475 damage is not overpowered, because the counter is prot spirit.

Fail.

The counters Im talking about are not one specific skill. They are using skills people are already bringing half the time in a more strategic way.

Plus, guild wars may not be a glorified rock paper scissors, but its not a "cover all your bases" game like Counterstrike or starcraft either. Guild wars is a Metagame type deal.
Read up on magic the gathering to get a good idea why im being so negative against all the people crying for nerfs.

Keithark · Oct 05, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

What skill that is commonly used in PvP is NOT overpowered IF you DON'T counter it? Everyone cry for nerf on easily countered skills and then say that the ability to counter them is not a reason to keep them as they are...why not? If you dont take a hex removal then diversion is overpowered, if you dont take dismiss conditions then daze, deep wound, etc is overpowered. If you take off your armor then c+space attacks are overpowered. What is the logic behind saying that it is a bad idea to keep a skill in the game that is easily interrupted, or based on adrenaline which can be slowed by blackouts, disarm, blind, blurred vision, etc. Those are not all either there are specific skills as well vocal minority, ulcerous lungs that are more direct in the shutdown of paragons. A-Net please do not listen to people crying because they had rather REact with strip enchantment, rending touch, etc than PROact by taking some hex, using blind, or interrupting skills.

Lorekeeper · Oct 05, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

What skill that is commonly used in PvP is NOT overpowered IF you DON'T counter it? Everyone cry for nerf on easily countered skills and then say that the ability to counter them is not a reason to keep them as they are...why not? If you dont take a hex removal then diversion is overpowered, if you dont take dismiss conditions then daze, deep wound, etc is overpowered. If you take off your armor then c+space attacks are overpowered. What is the logic behind saying that it is a bad idea to keep a skill in the game that is easily interrupted, or based on adrenaline which can be slowed by blackouts, disarm, blind, blurred vision, etc. Those are not all either there are specific skills as well vocal minority, ulcerous lungs that are more direct in the shutdown of paragons. A-Net please do not listen to people crying because they had rather REact with strip enchantment, rending touch, etc than PROact by taking some hex, using blind, or interrupting skills.

whoa chill out there. If you noticed its generally the better players who are posting very reasonable skill balances. Not nerfs... balances. Id advise you and perhaps Anet to think more carefully about which posts you pay attention to and expect people to take seriously and which ones to ignore or to reply to by showing how their arguments are wrong.

alot of the stuff out there is easily dealt with as long as you know what you are doing. But its wrong to say that everything has a counter. Even if everything had a counter we wouldnt necessarily have a good game. There is only room for 64 skills in a team, do you think you could fit every possible counter? You could but your build with be a countering build, with little to know character of its own. You would be forever reacting to your opponents moves rather than dictating anything yourself. A purely defensive game is a losing game imo. You cannot heal your way to victory.

I remember reading a great series of fantasy books written by Raymond E Feist in which the explanation for the lack of any magic users in any war was explain by the fact that as soon as one magician casts a spell... another casts one to counter it... it becomes a waste of effort as long as both sides have an equal amount of magicians and you dont always know how many you might need (in GW we do).

its like the hex meta. Hexes do have counters. They have plenty of them. But its not so simple to bring all the counters to hexes, because if you face a non-hex build all your anti hex utility is wasted. There needs to be a balance between having the opportunity or need to bring counters to things, and having the freedom to run more flexible skills. The more GW becomes a game of counters the more it becomes a game of chance, or rock paper scissors.

moriz · Oct 05, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

the point is, those skill combos can very easily overload any counters against them. that's why they are overpowered.

take the DA sin under deadly paradox for example. the only parts of the spike that are prot-able are signet of toxic shock and signet of judgement. dancing daggers deals approximately 120 damage that goes right through prot such as prot spirit and spirit bond. even if you successfully protted SoG and signet of toxic shock, deadly paradox allows the DA sin to restart the combo with another 120 damage unprotable attack. you can throw small prots at it such as shielding hands and SoA, but the fact is, those two skills can still be overloaded by simple spamming.

all that comes from just 1 (one) DA sin. now imagine two of them. what are you going to do now? try to dshot/prot against both? now imagine 3. or 4 (this actually happened in an AT match btw. one team showed up with 4 DA sins and won in about 6 minutes. both teams are in the top 100). the point is, the DA sin is considered overpowered because their response to counters is just to spam more. they can quite easily overload any reasonable counters against them.

ditto with pretty much all the other builds. all of them can very easily overload any reasonable counters against them by simply spamming, or by bringing more of them.

glountz · Oct 05, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Not really, Since any decent sin will spam the build 1,2,3,4 you only need to fire an interrupt in between.

No, really, no. I used A/Mo templates for TA and you can all days try to interrupt me. I cast in 0.5 and have an aftercast of 0.75. 60% of the time you will interrupt my aftercast. "Fire an interrupt in between", big lol.
Especially considering you will be unable to fire your interrupt as you will be on your ass anyway, and it's difficult to use a bow/cast a spell when KD.
You seem also to forget that SoJ don't have half range requirement, that you can trigger interrupt by fainting, and that DA sins are a KD chains virtually KDing people for 4+ seconds if well executed, 6 one of your sin has Iron palm.
Most of the time when going A/Mo one directly KD-chain the Monk (without trying to Augury him), whereas the others spike the most dangerous target (mesmers for example). If people got balled up they take several times SoJ (which has a AoE effect) and they die.

Shmanka · Oct 05, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Read up on magic the gathering to get a good idea why im being so negative against all the people crying for nerfs.

Somethings NEED to be nerfed though. This is not preferance, somethings are just obviously mathematically better then others in this game still. In magic the gathering that's almost like having every overpowered blue card still in todays metagame. There are strategies but it is still overpowered.

Master Ketsu · Oct 05, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Somethings NEED to be nerfed though.

Oh I know, Ive already stated a while back that deadly paradox could use a nerf. It shouldnt be able to be kept up so easily considering its power.

The problem Im having is with how people want whatever is pwning them completely nerfed to crap. Its seriously not THAT hard to beat. I see people suggesting to outright delete the skills, which is just sad. minor nerfs, not major. If you do major nerfs then something else will be discovered and rise up in its place ... Which is why im against huge nerf updates. Anet should maybe nerf / buff only a couple skills a week so that their individual changes to the metagame can be more easily tracked rather then dropping a nerfbomb on a ton of skills all at once.

glountz · Oct 05, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

The problem Im having is with how people want whatever is pwning them completely nerfed to crap. Its seriously not THAT hard to beat. I see people suggesting to outright delete the skills, which is just sad. minor nerfs, not major. If you do major nerfs then something else will be discovered and rise up in its place ... Which is why im against huge nerf updates. Anet should maybe nerf / buff only a couple skills a week so that their individual changes to the metagame can be more easily tracked rather then dropping a nerfbomb on a ton of skills all at once.

The issue with you Ketsu is that you actually propose counters that actually are inefficient against what you claim to be balanced. If you had really tried your own counters you proposed, you would have seen that they were not so nice.
For A/MO builds, the only way to actively counter it is to nullify their KDs (with any skill you want-and not one KD, but at least 6 of them).
You break the KD, you can soak up their damage until they have no more energy. However, you need then to bring specific skills that might be utterly inefficient next match, and even with that you might have issues.
The issue with this kind of builds is that they need a superior skill to be countered. In short, a nub A/Mo team will thump to death an average to decent TA team/guild group.

Master Ketsu · Oct 05, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

The issue with you Ketsu is that you actually propose counters that actually are inefficient against what you claim to be balanced. If you had really tried your own counters you proposed, you would have seen that they were not so nice.

I actually have been successfully doing what I stated as a counter for quite some time. Perhaps your doing it wrong.

RhanoctJocosa · Oct 05, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

*senseless rambling*

You propose Diversion and DShot as a counter to everything, need I say more?

Diddy bow · Oct 05, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

to comment on a few...

Avatar of Melandru: Meh its not so tough, Its you ELITE slot, and i think countering blind is worth it.

DA:lol its already a tad on the crap side just leave it

.

Agressive Refrain: I guess a constant speed buff is a bit powerful but the mehcanic is fine, i think the -10 while attacking idea is just right.

MOR:Yea just mesmer skills, fine otherwise though.

GOLE:Buff to ele's is nice but i wouldnt want to remove the secondry proffesion usage.

Ward against melle: I really do hate this thing but the nerf to mor would make it fine and also a nerf to this would save an mor nerf.

Rao:Its just fine as it is, your idea fot this is pathetic to be blunt.

Shadow prison:Its not so good as it was now, needs no balence.

Asp:I dont see the problem with the build, nothing wrong with it.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 05, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

As for MoR, I think I see the problem. Without some kind of easy e-management (ie, GoLE), it would be pretty hard to get wards up under the current dom mesmer template (diversion, shame, shatter). A GoLE reduction should clear up the problems with MoR ease, imo.

Drain enchantment and power drain are perfectly acceptable for energy management on the mor bar, which is why they're often me/rt or me/mo. I really don't think nerfing GoLE is going to do much other than make certain templates less desirable, particularly monk bars. I personally like the monk meta at the moment.